Praise, not choke chains...

topic posted Fri, December 12, 2003 - 9:03 PM by  Mister E
Is there ever an instance in which punishment is superior to praise in reinforcing desirable behavior...?

Look and see in your own life how you may have been manipulated by fear to behave in a certain way. How did you feel about that?
posted by:
Mister E
  • Re: Praise, not choke chains...

    Mon, February 16, 2004 - 5:13 PM
    ...and notice how often (if you do) you kick yourself for some of the decisions or choices you make that turn out to be less than desirable!

    Time to fire that "internal punisher" and hire a more loving puppy trainer!
    • Re: Praise, not choke chains...

      Tue, February 24, 2004 - 5:27 AM
      Hmm, I can see that. However, I was ignored my whole life by all adults. I grew up ignoring myself. So I have a love/hate relationship with my time manager. I don't really punish myself. But yet I have to, I have to watch my food intake, watch my television intake, watch my procrastination, apathy, and depression tendencies. I constantly force myself to sacrifice something that was "good" for the greater good. And sometimes that is the meanest most harsh thing i can do for myself. But after the fact, I feel more loved because I am more productive and more aware. I build will and discipline. I guess it is all about perception, but i understand what you mean.

      I also realized that I can't just sacrifice stuff. So i started writing a dream book and I write out everything I want in such detail i can touch it and taste it. That way when I am in a fight over tv or meditation, I write my dreams and why meditation is the winner and TV naturally loses. But my poor ego feels so slighted that if i dont remain objectively aware it takes revenge. i also learned i cant overlove myself so I don't take the strong hand with myself. And I cant fight nature/ego. I just have to work with it and just let go.
      • Re: Praise, not choke chains...

        Thu, February 26, 2004 - 3:55 PM
        Erica, you're on the Path of Light... and it's just a matter of not if but when you begin attracting more and more of your extended spiritual family around you... or you notice that you are attracted to the light in others (as much as they will be in you)... your work in visualizing a more loving life for yourself is already paying off... just look at the conversations you're able to have here! Not only do I see so much potential in you, that potential has already begun realizing itself in the quality of relating with those with whom you find yourself in relationship (which is far more important than seeking to obtain a certain "form" of relationship!)

        dj
  • Re: Praise, not choke chains...

    Tue, February 24, 2004 - 8:23 PM
    Let me think this out... I often manipulate myself with fear to maintain a strict living conduct, and I find that my methods are completely counterproductive. Take nutrition, for instance. My nutritional knowledge far surpasses any practical applications of it simply because "I am not disciplined enough" to maintain the lifestyle "I know is best for me." However, measuring myself against a standard only points out the gaping chasm that will always exist between me and it. When I am overloaded with supposed knowledge, it tends to interfere with right attitude (again, I qualify the subject, but I think you see my point and its convolutions). When I am eternally grateful and in a state of transcendent, grounded bliss, then this attitude clearly affects my health more positively than do my (well-intentioned) attempts to measure myself against the Standard of Health.

    When my choices are about abundance (in raw-foodism, for example) and I can be a raw foodist with that sense, then I succeed. When they are about dogma, I do not. In my experience, it has been very difficult to maintain a state of grounded, open bliss in which I am most positively productive and authentic. Then, when emotional lulls come, I try to keep with the behavioral patterns that authentically emerged from the state of divine openness that gave rise to them. That's when dogma kicks in and I become an idolator.

    Recognizing this pattern has helped me to dissolve it. It's a beautiful thing.
    • Re: Praise, not choke chains...

      Thu, February 26, 2004 - 3:56 PM
      Erin, you're so "out there" that it's just fun observing you and wondering where you're going to take us next!

      Tell us a little bit about the spiritual training you have received so far in life!

      dj
      • Re: Praise, not choke chains...

        Fri, February 27, 2004 - 9:32 PM
        Okay. I've been studying the kabbalah for three or four years. I have always been fascinated by the Hebrew letters. I am a visual artist, and back in high school I'd incorporate the letters into my artwork and also make extensive use of geometry. These tendencies have transfered over to a much more conscious endeavor to study the Hebrew letters, their emanations and archetypal qualities, their geometry, and multiple functions within the Torah and in and of themselves. I am familiar with the works of Stan Tenen of the Meru Institute, and with Carlo Suares. These two have influenced my intellectual pursuits kabbalistically.
        Devotionally, my art and energetic exploration of kabbalah have really primed my spiritual canvas and given me a good foundation--combined with Zen, Taoism, Hinduism, Gnosticism, Sufism, and a bit of Theosophy. After the complex terms and significations of the kabbalah become more transparent, I hope to find ways to cultivate presence and experiental knowledge of this most beautiful system.
        I've also taken part in Firedance culture, which uses neopagan and alchemical traditions in an intentional healing ceremony. Prolongued exposure to these people inspires just as much soulwork as the rituals themselves. Community is the most instrumental thing for me, which is why I'm going a bit haywire here in Bible belt academia. It's hard to be a light when my batteries have not been charged in so long.
        • Re: Praise, not choke chains...

          Sun, March 7, 2004 - 2:40 PM
          "...Community is the most instrumental thing for me, which is why I'm going a bit haywire here in Bible belt academia. It's hard to be a light when my batteries have not been charged in so long."
          ==========

          I commiserate with you... being in Norfolk is equally daunting.

          Regarding your diet, are you now living in community with others who support your raw-foodist choices?

          dave
          • Re: Praise, not choke chains...

            Wed, March 10, 2004 - 3:00 PM
            No, and in fact, I'm not eating raw right now. I started eating more protein, and I ate salmon for the first time the other night! I'm trying new things, seeing what works.

            Long time no talk to, Dave! Hope all's well.

            loverin
  • Re: Praise, not choke chains...

    Thu, March 11, 2004 - 9:39 PM
    When I was just a puppy my trainer screamed a lot for no particular reason. So my liitermates and I developed an attitude we called being slutpuppies. Begging for any kindness we could get, always concerned about making the trainer happy, cause when the trainer ain't happy, nobodies happy. This behavior is based on the fear that if you don't make'em happy they will rain all hell down on your world and you will know that you deserve it because nobody ever told you that you were worth a crap.

    Yeah, I know I should reward myself with praise, but i don't believe it even when I say it. I am too old and ugly to get by as a slutpuppy any more. I hate being manipulated by fear but sometimes I just have to get the screamers of the world off my back for a while. In my home screaming lead to violence, it's a hard lesson to forget.
    • Re: Praise, not choke chains...

      Sat, April 17, 2004 - 9:02 AM
      Wait! Don't let your puppy dive under the bed in fear! There is a way through this... together... and it *is* possible to teach an "old puppy" new tricks!

      I was 36 when I got my puppy trained... and once you begin the training it only takes a year (officially), as a self-taught, self-paced course.

      If you're really fed up with dealing with your untrained puppy mind, let me know and we'll talk off line about what you can do.

      *This* puppy is now 54 and I've never been happier (happy puppy!)...

      Dave

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